Episode 127

full
Published on:

28th Mar 2025

The Taste Premium

We dig into the idea of taste—how it’s formed, how it signals identity, and where it fits in media and business today. We also unpack how taste once defined media gatekeepers, how it’s now being democratized (or commodified), and why developing taste is less about money and more about intentionality. We are then joined by sociologist and brand strategist Ana Andjelic to debate the merits of European taste vs American taste. Plus: Anonymous Banker has a cameo on how to get a “taste premium” in M&A.

Transcript
Brian:

So, Troy and I have been, you know, having escapades, together in Miami.

Alex:

Are you been plotting against me?

Alex:

Is that why we have like seven, seven guests today?

Alex:

We're just, is this like, auditions for my replacement?

Brian:

don't be paranoid.

Brian:

Don't be paranoid.

Brian:

that's why

Brian:

Troy keeps going on Dylan's

Brian:

podcast.

Brian:

He's gonna replace me with Dylan Byers.

Troy:

Alex is getting replaced

Troy:

first,

Troy:

for sure.

Alex:

see

Brian:

Is that, your Should we get into the episode?

Troy:

Let's get going.

Alex:

why I'm

Alex:

here.

Brian:

I think everyone knows who everyone else is, but we are gonna be joined by two guests today.

Brian:

anonymous Banker, who's another breakout.

Brian:

I think he's a breakout star.

Brian:

The recurring character of Anonymous Banker.

Brian:

I think it's a good one.

Alex:

we're still dialing in the voice modification because it grates on some people.

Alex:

So I just, you know, this is still, it's, it's still, it's still working pro.

Alex:

Yeah.

Alex:

I mean, after a while, We've some feedback, so it's still work in progress.

Alex:

Everyone.

Alex:

We're trying to dial it in,

Brian:

Fine.

Brian:

I like it.

Brian:

and then, Anna Angelic, is a tastemaker in my household, is gonna be joining us.

Brian:

little special family episode.

Brian:

We'll see how that goes.

Brian:

I hope it goes

Alex:

do you wanna remind the people who we are?

Alex:

Of

Brian:

oh, well, I, I don't like this.

Brian:

But anyway, I, I'm Brian Morrissey and I'm joined by Troy Young and Alex Schleifer.

Brian:

I don't like the intros.

Brian:

I, I, I've

Brian:

heard other podcasts that,

Troy:

And we do get guests.

Troy:

We do, we do make the effort to get guests.

Troy:

Occasionally, but only if, you know, they're solicited over dinner or something.

Troy:

Like they're, they're, or they're in our households, or they just agree to do it

Troy:

because they like us.

Troy:

You know, like,

Brian:

No, I like the, I like, I like having the drop by.

Brian:

That's, that's the, that's the approach we're taking.

Brian:

They're

Troy:

I, I mean, it was a little shocking, right.

Troy:

Anna Ana's gonna drop by and we asked her last night and she was enthusiastic about it over dinner.

Troy:

I'm just surprised that we're doing an episode on taste.

Troy:

I was surprised that you never thought of having her on earlier because she, she spends a lot of time thinking about that.

Brian:

She does.

Brian:

That's her profession, you know, but we, we keep her professional pursuits mostly separate.

Brian:

Anna's gonna be joining us in 15 minutes and, and Alex has a hard stop.

Alex:

as a way of taste before you start, because you keep being reluctant about sharing our names at the beginning of each episode.

Alex:

Do you think that's tasteless?

Brian:

no, I don't think so.

Brian:

It's, it, it's familiarity because I think what I got feedback and the feedback that I commonly get the most positive feedback that I think is, is

Brian:

good is someone wrote in this week and said, oh, it's like, you know, listen to three smart people like at the bar.

Brian:

And like, I think that's sort of what, I think that's what a lot of podcasts do well.

Brian:

but I don't know, I haven't gotten any complaints on that, that front.

Alex:

I mean, we, we probably saw like three smart people at a bar after a few drinks.

Alex:

But I, I, I think it's nice for a new audience to that comes in to understand the

Brian:

Okay, fine.

Alex:

You know who

Troy:

I mean, when you, when you, when you don't prepare, you gotta lean into the banter, Alex,

Alex:

Yeah, you do.

Alex:

You do.

Brian:

Okay, well we can weave that in because Alex, I wanna start, 'cause we're gonna do a taste episode.

Brian:

We did one on like productivity, and we're gonna try another sort of theme episode.

Brian:

It's gonna be a theme newsletter if you don't already get the People versus Algorithms newsletter.

Brian:

it's a real banger.

Brian:

get it at peopleversusalgorithms.com comes out every Friday.

Brian:

It's a a, a companion, a weekend companion to this podcast.

Brian:

But I wanna

Brian:

start with

Troy:

even as like a co a cover image, like as a

Brian:

Yeah, as a cover

Troy:

to, to the old days.

Troy:

This

Brian:

because Troy is a tastemaker and we will get to, to that.

Brian:

'cause I think it's an important part of his, his identity.

Brian:

But I wanna start with you, Alex, because to me, when we're gonna like, unpack taste, I think of like taste as like inextricably entwined with design and you're, you're a designer.

Brian:

At heart, even if you're doing video games now, right?

Alex:

well, I'm a video game

Alex:

designer now, so

Brian:

what you,

Alex:

I'm still a designer.

Alex:

I just designed video

Brian:

It's still okay.

Brian:

You're still a

Alex:

Oh, it's a very malleable word.

Alex:

You just like slap it onto anything.

Alex:

You know, lifestyle, designer, anything you want.

Alex:

You can be a designer.

Alex:

Yeah.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

What is the role, first of all, what is the role of Taste in Design?

Brian:

And, can you just unpack your point of view on what taste actually

Brian:

is?

Brian:

Because I think a lot of times it, it's like content.

Brian:

It's applied to all kinds of things, and usually it's just used by people for whatever they want to use

Brian:

it for.

Alex:

This question makes me anxious.

Alex:

I.

Alex:

think it's because, this, you know, I was doing interface

Alex:

design and brand design and information design kind of things

Alex:

that people use and, and apps or see an advertising, and there was always this conversation around.

Alex:

is taste valuable?

Alex:

And of course it

Alex:

is.

Alex:

Of course it is.

Alex:

But

Alex:

oftentimes you're talking to people that don't truly

Alex:

understand taste, so you're trying to talk yourself around it and trying to, speak about these things a little bit more academically because they're paying you for it.

Alex:

And and it's it's, it's especially.

Alex:

when you're starting out it's kind of hard to say like well, I think this is good because I have good taste and I made that decision right.

Alex:

so the taste conversations has kind of, followed me throughout my career.

Alex:

and I think it's really

Alex:

hard to, for people to talk about taste because in itself that

Alex:

is tasteless to say that, well, the reason my work is good is that I have better taste than most people.

Alex:

and in this case, I think in the

Alex:

case of Work like design, whether it is for marketing or apps, it is

Alex:

kind of an understanding of what will appeal tastefully to as large a group of people as possible.

Alex:

And, and that you do it with enough kind of awareness of what people may like, but push the boundaries just

Alex:

enough so that?

Alex:

it's interesting and that you actually become hopefully, a taste maker, right?

Alex:

Like what you wanna do is, is build something that people find beautiful and then others start emulating.

Alex:

That conversation is often really hard

Alex:

to have within an organization.

Alex:

And So.

Alex:

I think a lot of people in the

Alex:

field, talk around it.

Alex:

maybe it's different in, in fashion and in music or, or creative media, but definitely in the world I used to come from.

Alex:

we we try to avoid the taste conversation oddly enough.

Alex:

Dunno if that answers your question.

Brian:

I think it does in part.

Brian:

Troy, do you want to pick up here?

Brian:

I think of you as a taste maker.

Brian:

you have taste across a lot of different areas.

Brian:

You've got a point of view to me like taste is like you need a point of view and I think you're getting at that Alex, and then a lot of people shy away from, from taste because it requires a point of view.

Brian:

I mean, we've talked about this on this podcast, you can endlessly multivariate tests like various things that's not having, having taste exactly.

Brian:

But what is it to you, Troy, and why is it important?

Troy:

Well,

Troy:

thank you.

Troy:

Thank you for, for the compliment.

Troy:

I appreciate it.

Troy:

it's important to me, I, don't,

Troy:

know, maybe it makes

Troy:

me feel comfortable.

Troy:

Maybe it makes me feel like the people around me or the spaces that I occupy that I like, are the right place to be.

Troy:

And there there's something kind of nurturing and comforting and reassuring about it.

Troy:

It was like, I am fussy when it, like, when it comes to like, like I'll tolerate a shitty room or a tasteless restaurant,

Troy:

if the food and the value and the craft and the execution kind of, you know, offset it.

Troy:

Hotels for me, like bad taste in hotels is.

Troy:

Usually kind of sucks.

Troy:

and

Troy:

and

Troy:

that's why, you know, I like to kind of find places.

Troy:

It doesn't mean they have to be expensive, although hotels with taste, you know, generally are.

Troy:

but like last night when I met you,

Troy:

Brian, I. we went into that wonderful new hotel.

Troy:

I don't know how new it is.

Troy:

I guess a couple years, a year, year or two old now in

Troy:

Miami, which I think is

Brian:

for longer.

Troy:

probably one of the nicest

Troy:

hotels I've been to in a

Troy:

long, it's the four season surf side.

Troy:

and it, it's, it's like an incredible place, right?

Troy:

Like, it feels like it has history, it feels, even though, you know it's manufactured, it has like everything.

Troy:

Like, it just, feels kind of authentic.

Troy:

It feels like, you, you're transported into an another place.

Troy:

Like it's kind of dreamy that way.

Troy:

I don't know.

Troy:

It, it, to me, it, it, it shows like good taste has a sense of where it is.

Troy:

Like it's, it feels like a kind of old fashioned Miami that you wanna hang out in.

Brian:

Yeah, it's like got a fifties, sixties vibe.

Brian:

They've got a Havana style

Troy:

yeah.

Brian:

Thomas Keller's the the

Brian:

chef

Troy:

it's like, you know, the, the flower arrangements at that hotel were, were beautiful and kind of, you know, simple.

Troy:

And the, the whole thing, it smelled good.

Troy:

The staff was incredible.

Troy:

Like, it's just a, it's

Troy:

just a great hotel.

Troy:

It.

Alex:

I, it's interesting what you're saying because it actually, it, it, it reminds me that taste, because the taste conversation sometimes gets bogged down by personal tastes, which is one thing.

Alex:

But a lot of what you're talking about here is I. Is like decisions and execution, right?

Alex:

Like, like execution that matches the decisions that were made to a point where the whole package comes together really well.

Alex:

Like it's likely that you wouldn't design your home or even your hotel like that Four Seasons hotel is, but there was a vision and it was well executed and it feels coherent.

Alex:

And so even when you're in it, there's lots of spaces that I visit or things that I see where I said, I, it's not my thing.

Alex:

But that vision is so clear and is so well executed that it becomes tasteful in its own

Troy:

Yeah, I mean,

Alex:

and we forget about the execution.

Alex:

Execution is such a big part of taste, like

Troy:

huge, huge, and the foundation of TA taste has gotta be some kind of empathy, right?

Troy:

Like you gotta.

Troy:

You gotta be able to feel what's right for people in the moment.

Troy:

You've gotta make choices.

Troy:

It has to be underpinned by,

Troy:

you know, craft.

Troy:

Hopefully that craft feels authentic,

Troy:

but you know, it's just like a sense of proportion.

Troy:

You know, good taste always has sort of, I guess like a kind of cultural literacy kind of knowing the right references or the history, or you get why like a vintage thing is cool or not.

Troy:

You know, usually it whispers in Miami, it often yells, you know, it, it, it avoids it, you know, being over the top.

Troy:

But you know, it, this conversation started because I was thinking about how you differentiate a business, right?

Troy:

And there's all the ways that you can differentiate a product, which might be price or might be quality, or might

Troy:

be service, or might be selection, or might be, you know, those little levers that you pull to try to.

Troy:

Create a mode or compete as a business.

Troy:

And taste is a really big one of 'em.

Troy:

And, and the, one of the reasons this came up is Brian said, well come and meet me at The Standard, which is a hotel that's not on the kind of main Beach, Miami Beach strip.

Troy:

It's like on the, the Biscayne

Brian:

The, The, Biscay Bay.

Brian:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

And so literally, you know, like I, I went from a hotel that had what I would say is absolutely no vibe to like one that was like overflowing with Vibe.

Troy:

The, the standard has it.

Troy:

And, you know, that hotel was, it was a shitty motel on the wrong side of the strip.

Troy:

And in 2004, I, I think is when it, when it opened Andre Baz, who's made lots of cool spaces, he made one on Shelter Island at, at, called the Sunset Beach Hotel.

Troy:

but gave the place kind of a vibe and it still has it 20 years later and people still wanna be there.

Troy:

And so it's interesting to me that you cannot have.

Troy:

You know, the competitive ingredients that all of these hotels

Troy:

have on, on, on the Miami Beach side, but you can make a place that just is so much better

Alex:

Yeah, and I think I, I mean this is where taste is.

Alex:

and it, it same applies in in filmmaking or any type of media or anything like that, where like taste, which leads to art direction, which leads to very cohesive vision means.

Alex:

That you can punch above your weight usually, you know, and, and I think it's when, and, but it requires, it requires I think, leadership with taste.

Alex:

And I think the two people I've worked for in my life, were you and Brian Chesky from Airbnb.

Alex:

And I think the thing that made it work was that you both had taste, even though you couldn't make me execute the way I could, it allowed

Brian:

What do you mean?

Brian:

You've seen Troy's designs?

Alex:

Yeah, I've seen

Troy:

he, I, no,

Troy:

I suck.

Troy:

I suck

Alex:

Troy's got, I mean, just like, just not to underplay it.

Alex:

I think Troy does have like, like is one of the people that has the, some of the best taste and vision for what I think looks cool.

Alex:

Even, even in his advanced age, he's keeping up with it, which is like very,

Troy:

Well, one of the things that I like about Miami, you guys, is like, it breaks the rules in lots of ways, which is a big part of taste, I think, which is taking something ugly and making it cool,

Troy:

right?

Troy:

Like taking something from one context and just who posing it in one word maybe doesn't fit, but knowing how to do it in a way that makes you wonder about it or reconsider it.

Troy:

Like those are people that are really good at it.

Troy:

But like Miami is ghastly in lots of ways,

Troy:

right?

Troy:

Like, you know, like, I mean the car, green Neon, green Lambos, and like butt implants and just like duck lips all over the place and the public art in Miami is horrendous.

Troy:

Um, yeah.

Brian:

district is a shopping mall.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Like you said about the design district, it's the only place where, you know, someone was paid to do graffiti.

Brian:

Well, no, that's, Wynwood in Wynwood.

Brian:

You get, they, they've got the brand activation graffiti there.

Troy:

And Miami just breaks rules in other weird ways too, because like, like you can do things that are considered, gosh, in other places, like you can vape in the pool or some people don't care.

Troy:

I mean, which isn't

Troy:

a big deal, but like you can just, there's lots of, stuff that's considered tasteless in other places, you know, is just

Troy:

like the rules of the road in Miami

Brian:

It's like living in an airport, you know, all the rules are off.

Troy:

also, like the, and, and, and by the way, who approved this one pisses me off.

Troy:

If you're on the Beautiful Mind, the beach is great here, right?

Troy:

Weather's terrific.

Troy:

All that.

Troy:

And like, who approved those floating TV sets that float by?

Troy:

Like,

Troy:

what,

Brian:

you're against Troy.

Brian:

You are against an ad network.

Troy:

You're on the beach, you know, you're, you're having a, you know, it's a beautiful place.

Troy:

You're chilling out and like these gigantic barges with huge screens on them float by advertising some like electronic, you know, music festival.

Brian:

You see, you see the horizon.

Brian:

I, I see.

Brian:

Available inventory.

Alex:

Yeah, I mean, they're putting banner ads on the scene now.

Alex:

That's like, I mean, burn it down.

Alex:

Start over.

Alex:

I'm sorry.

Alex:

This is,

Troy:

Thank you.

Brian:

that's, that's ballyhoo by the way, ballyhoo, if you're listening, we're open for sponsorships.

Brian:

Um,

Brian:

I think they're, they're the floating ad network.

Brian:

They used to be, they used to be in New York until they shut them down.

Brian:

I, I saw them

Alex:

Well, New York, like famously tasteful.

Alex:

Tasteful city.

Alex:

City full of taste in New York.

Brian:

I think New York is tasteful.

Alex:

I, I agree.

Alex:

I'm not being sarcastic.

Brian:

okay, good.

Brian:

let's talk about, because taste in media used to be a moat.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

and I don't think that really exists anymore.

Brian:

This is, you know, Grayden Carter has his new book out.

Brian:

Like when, when the Times were good.

Brian:

about like the heyday of magazines.

Brian:

This is something you talked about.

Brian:

Last week, Troy, and, I think that era was defined by taste being wielded by gatekeepers.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

And that, that's leaked out.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

I don't think you can really say that.

Brian:

Maybe Vogue will be an exception to a degree, but you know, I don't know if GQ is like setting, setting taste.

Brian:

I mean, 'cause taste is aspirational.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

And I don't know if media if most of like, legacy media doesn't play that role anymore.

Troy:

Is that a question?

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

That's a question.

Brian:

You can react to it.

Troy:

well, I I, I think they, you know, you wish you did because being someone who influences how people consume is, has economic and cultural power and you

Troy:

know, that, that power has, has kind of, seeped out of, you know, traditional kinda lifestyle media and other types of media and so, but it, it's gone somewhere else.

Ana:

we

Troy:

who's here.

Brian:

here.

Troy:

How are you doing, Ana?

Troy:

Nice to have you here.

Ana:

Thanks for having me.

Ana:

How are

Ana:

you guys?

Troy:

we're good.

Troy:

It was great

Troy:

seeing

Ana:

to meet you, Alex.

Ana:

I don't think we ever

Alex:

No, we never met.

Alex:

Hi.

Alex:

You exist.

Brian:

this this is a drop

Ana:

I do exist.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

Very much so.

Ana:

Very much so.

Ana:

Okay.

Brian:

we're talking about taste and we were just talking about the role, how it's sort of leaked out from, from media being like taste makers.

Brian:

And to me, like taste making is, it's a form of gatekeeping, I think to some degree because he used to have to work to have taste, like if I put in the newsletter.

Brian:

But like Brian Breaker has great taste in music, I think.

Brian:

And you know, he worked at it.

Brian:

He, he is gone to all the record stores for like decades and developed, he's been DJing.

Brian:

He is a Brooklyn DJ dad.

Brian:

That's, that's an archetype.

Brian:

And, and nowadays you sort of give it over to Spotify.

Brian:

You don't have to like work to develop ca taste.

Brian:

And I'm kind of struck by how the, the, the tech CEOs, I. sort of outsource taste.

Brian:

Like they, they don't naturally have taste.

Brian:

It's pretty obvious, right?

Brian:

But then you look at the transformation of like, Bezos, of Jensen, Wang of, of Zuckerberg, you know, they just got stylists.

Brian:

and then all of a sudden they're just like renting taste, which is to me totally

Troy:

Well, that would, that would, that would assume that the way it ended up, it, you know, reflected some type of good taste, which it doesn't seem to have at all.

Brian:

no, it's like The appearance of taste.

Alex:

Jensen's Huang's, all black leather.

Alex:

Jacket suit dodge

Troy:

it's just like a,

Troy:

I mean, it it's definitely a shtick, but it's not tasteful.

Troy:

It's

Alex:

don't think so.

Ana:

Well also guys, you should know that stylists in Hollywood, like in life didn't exist 20 years ago.

Ana:

That's like a new

Alex:

is it a new

Brian:

yeah.

Brian:

Well, you got offended when Troy suggested getting you a stylist to jumpstart Anna, the brand.

Ana:

A bring it on.

Ana:

Like I'll take anything like,

Troy:

I mean, I was saying that if we could

Ana:

where, where does the budget start?

Ana:

A hundred thousand 500.

Ana:

Like, let's go Troy.

Ana:

Come on.

Ana:

I'll open the

Brian:

Well, you naturally have taste.

Brian:

I think you have taste.

Brian:

I, you know, I'm biased in this, but I think you have good

Alex:

I wish people watch this on video because you can really see the, the, the taste distribution from, from, from screen to screen.

Alex:

Brian's background

Ana:

why like, thank you,

Ana:

Alex, because I don't even need to

Ana:

re respond.

Ana:

You know, some things you just don't need to respond to.

Troy:

Well, what, what is, what does it mean to you, Ana?

Troy:

You're, you're, you're smart about this stuff.

Troy:

What, what is taste?

Ana:

So sociologically, there've been a ton of studies because obviously it's one of the ways that people organize themselves and judge themselves and rank themselves and signal their status.

Ana:

So the blend was used it to kind of say, Hey, upper classes have specific tastes, but when lower classes adopt those tastes, upper classes, move on and start doing something else.

Ana:

So that's like Soho House, that's like maybe even Ani now.

Ana:

That's, you know, like when you start doing certain things, when like SoulCycle used to be cool, like I know it sounds improbable, but, so

Ana:

that's kind of those behaviors that you always need to kind of keep going and that's the class distinction.

Troy:

Now I see why you got pissed off last night when I asked you if you knew what a Evelyn Good was, because

Troy:

this is foundational.

Troy:

Well, not pissed off, I mean, but you were like, of course.

Troy:

Because I wanted you to be a ent Good.

Troy:

Right?

Troy:

So that

Troy:

you would increase your, your subscription prices.

Brian:

Yeah, it's about monetization.

Brian:

Troy's

Ana:

but then you become a gaff and good, you know, when your price is just, people are buying you just

Ana:

because you have a really high price, which is like, basically Jay Z's champagne and like the crazy stuff.

Troy:

Yeah.

Ana:

So anyway, so like without going, so that's like, let's talk about that because that's important for what Brian and what you guys talked about before.

Ana:

And then for, er he was also talking about how taste is actually you are born into that.

Ana:

It's something that's given and that is actually the opposite of what I believe in and what.

Ana:

Other schools sociology believe in because as if tomorrow I decide to become a coffee connoisseur and develop that taste, there are so many places to go there read, there are magazines, there are like blogs.

Ana:

There are like newsletters.

Ana:

There are videos I can be, if I wanna become a bourbon connoisseur, if I wanna develop like Japanese animal style, I can.

Ana:

So that is the whole point that in the.

Ana:

With the internet, with distaste communities, anyone can develop taste.

Ana:

It's not something that's fixed and given, which was, that's why I brought up those two sociologists that in, in the 20th century, it was something

Ana:

like, you are just born into that and you're stuck with it, and that's how you like, oh, that's not quite our class.

Ana:

Based on how, and Europe is still very much the case.

Ana:

If you go to London and hang out, or when you go to St. Moritz or so on, you know.

Ana:

Exactly.

Ana:

How do, how do knives are, you know, arranged.

Ana:

You don't know how the forks are arranged and you know how people behave and based on those behaviors, they know what class you are in.

Ana:

But like in general, all of that can be learned.

Brian:

Yeah, but that's the democratization part that I think is like, interesting because, you know,

Brian:

taste, democratizing taste to me is, is, I mean, isn't that like sort of against the point of it, like.

Alex:

I mean, isn't that what you were kind of mentioning, Anna?

Alex:

As soon as like taste a tastes start scaling, they, you know, the class of like, that defines themselves as taste maker tries to move to something

Alex:

else, which is, well, like taste rarely survives scale, once you, once you start doing something mass market, it's really difficult to keep, to

Ana:

But

Ana:

you have mass taste, you know, like Zara is a mass taste, fashion is a mass taste.

Ana:

And that is, you know, but the thing is, which I think is very interesting, that's what you, your examples of,

Ana:

of like Elon Musk having here now, you know, like that's kind of, everyone can pay for taste basically.

Ana:

but real, like when you say hey,

Troy:

I, I sort of think that bald is kind of beautiful.

Alex:

Yeah.

Ana:

Troy, definitely niche taste.

Alex:

For, for the audio listener,

Alex:

Troy just lifted his head.

Ana:

so I do think that when you, when you have like fashion Substack, now you have all those different new gatekeepers and they have their own niche audiences.

Ana:

They're like maybe a hundred thousand or so on.

Ana:

And then you still have Vogue.

Ana:

Vogue is mass taste for someone.

Ana:

Zach Posen is fashion for someone

Alex:

right.

Ana:

because he was a project runaway and so on.

Ana:

But actually, what, how do you wanna define what are those taste makers and groups are doing?

Ana:

Are they advancing the discipline?

Ana:

Are they advancing a market?

Ana:

What are, what is the, what is the purpose?

Ana:

Spotify is taste for someone,

Ana:

But not

Alex:

all of this, all of this, all of this taste though, comes.

Alex:

Even Zara, right?

Alex:

there's a, pipeline that comes in from smaller groups, which are often kind of defining tastes.

Alex:

you know, they can be artists, musicians, or, or some subculture.

Alex:

And then that taste makes it into the, the, the mass culture, right?

Alex:

And at some point.

Alex:

It feels that that gets tapped out and new sources get picked out.

Alex:

I mean, Spotify is the same thing, right?

Alex:

A lot of the Spotify spotlight playlist, it was about like discovering cool new artists that were, you know.

Alex:

Doci was like, you know, looking for work a year ago and now she's a massive star.

Alex:

isn't Zara also kind of like mining the taste of these subcultures popping up, isn't it, looking at like the whitest society and saying, okay, this is cool now we'll just mass produce it.

Ana:

Correct, but that's distribution,

Alex:

Right.

Alex:

So they're not, are they making taste or just, are they just scaling taste?

Ana:

test.

Alex:

Right,

Brian:

I'm interested in your, your point of view on the sort of European conception of taste versus the American 'cause.

Brian:

I think of America i's, pause it.

Brian:

I, I think we're a crass full group people, you know, we're commercializers, we're scalers, we like ad networks on the ocean.

Brian:

Like, you know, this is just who we are.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

I don't think this is not happening in Italy.

Ana:

Well, you

Ana:

can also look at the positive side.

Ana:

Your pioneers, explorers,

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

No, that's a positive.

Brian:

I look everything is trade-offs, you know, like I, I'm not looking to Italy to create like, you know, the next frontier models in ai, but I think I trust them more on having like great tastes generally.

Alex:

Yeah, but that taste is also really, is really set in legacy, right?

Alex:

Like, I don't think Italy, and, and a lot of it is, is kind of based on legacy.

Alex:

A lot of it is based on, on old fashioned ways and very rigid ways of doing things, which is great, which remains tasteful and there's some maintaining that is, is important.

Alex:

But like, you know, rock and roll and Bob Dylan and stuff like that, those influences often came from the US where

Brian:

Yeah, no,

Brian:

that, that, I, again, it's trade offs.

Brian:

I'm just saying when you're looking for, like, you know, Troy, if you're gonna have like a, a go to a hotel

Brian:

with great taste, okay, are you more likely to have that in Miami or are you more likely to have that in Milam?

Brian:

Like it's not close.

Troy:

Oh, it, it, it actually definitely Miami.

Troy:

I think that, the,

Ana:

deserve that, Brian.

Ana:

You deserve that.

Troy:

no, I mean that it's, it's, I, I've, I've been to really terrible hotels in Milan and I think that actually there's

Troy:

a real kind of taste perversion in Italy where it's like, either it, it, it, it actually, maybe we shouldn't draw.

Troy:

I mean, 'cause there's some things that Miami and, and, and Milan share, right?

Troy:

Like there's,

Troy:

I think there's a, well there's tackiness to both of it on this, on the, on the kind of bad side, right?

Troy:

Like

Alex:

Peacocks peacocking.

Troy:

I mean, there's wonderful hotels in Miami.

Troy:

We were at one last night.

Troy:

That hotel we were at last night is better than any single hotel in Milan, for sure.

Brian:

Well, you said you want to, you want to

Troy:

I, I would like to die.

Troy:

The areas I wouldn't mind.

Troy:

I'm not saying a violent death, like, but like if you were gonna overdose anywhere,

Troy:

that

Alex:

we doing, are we doing like a, this is Troy's white Lotus exit.

Alex:

Is

Troy:

Right.

Troy:

But, but, but like, so, because there's so many more dimensions to taste that I think that, that Americans are good at.

Troy:

There's just the sort of fundamental layer of taste.

Troy:

But there's also, you know, the, the kind of American obsession with, like sophisticated execution, right.

Troy:

And service that make the kind of American tasteful experience so wonderful.

Troy:

I, I, I don't know.

Troy:

I, I think that every society, I mean, even Canadians have taste, right?

Troy:

It's just, it's just different.

Brian:

W Ana, what is your, your, you're, you're, you're a cultural critic

Ana:

I do think there was a so-called Battle of Versailles in the seventies when American designers went to Paris and that was, Bill bla, back then you won't like know them.

Ana:

They were like before Calvin, Klein, Donna, Karen even.

Ana:

So you would have those, that, that sort of define the, the, the seventies.

Ana:

Jeffrey Bean I think was there and basically it, they, they staged that in Versailles and it was to raise money.

Ana:

And basically they came in and it was, it was unbelievably stodgy affair.

Ana:

Fashion shows back there, there was like classical music and so on.

Ana:

And Americans came and they were like, those Pet Cleveland, there were African Americans models, they were dancing, there was jazz, and they just killed it.

Ana:

And not just with the looks, but the, the entire format.

Ana:

And they really upset that.

Ana:

That luxury fashion.

Ana:

Setting and, but then he also, like when you look at Apple and design of computers, that is another thing.

Ana:

And so kind of like I do believe in that innovation in taste that comes from here.

Ana:

I don't agree with Troy in terms of service because when you go to a lot of American luxury hotels, there's, it's so overroad, it's not natural.

Ana:

When you go to Japan, for example, it's.

Ana:

One step ahead.

Ana:

It feels very flowing and natural.

Ana:

And here someone tells you 55 times good, like good morning and knocks on your door

Ana:

and enters and you know, like breaking and entering and do you need like chocolate?

Ana:

And you know, like it's, it's kinda over, you know, like,

Alex:

I agree.

Alex:

As a, as

Ana:

it is like I'm naked.

Ana:

Go away, you

Troy:

you you're

Brian:

no subtlety.

Brian:

There's

Troy:

Right.

Troy:

Yeah.

Brian:

we used to do this event at my last job in, at a, a resort.

Brian:

We went to a lot of resorts, so I spent a lot of time in resorts just for a professional reason.

Brian:

And it was in Deer Valley.

Brian:

And the staff, when you would walk by them in the hallway, they would like pin themselves to the wall.

Brian:

Like it was like a wide corridor.

Brian:

And I was just like, this is a little bit much, I don't need that.

Alex:

Yeah, I think

Ana:

think that, in Milan you have, like, when you go to Como, those hotels are amazing.

Ana:

Now Mandarin Oriental and then even like the attention to detail is much higher.

Ana:

Armani hotel like vo.

Ana:

You mentioned last night that you're very interested in the escort scene at Kaza Chip Onion Friday night.

Ana:

So when that's the like,

Brian:

Wait, who,

Ana:

just,

Brian:

who mentioned that?

Brian:

Was that me Or Troy?

Brian:

Or is that Alex?

Ana:

Troy, sorry.

Ana:

I was

Alex:

I was, I was, I was not involved in this.

Alex:

I would like, for the record,

Troy:

yeah, I might have mentioned that as an observer.

Troy:

I noticed at the Four Seasons Uptown, the new Four Seasons

Brian:

Yeah, no, it was not as a consumer.

Brian:

I don't remember

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

And, and, and also, yeah, the, The fashion examples may be, you know, I mean, different countries have primacy in different industries,

Troy:

and, you know, American fashion isn't really, you know, obviously nearly as well developed, if that's the

Troy:

lens you're using.

Ana:

Don't forget Ralph, respect to

Troy:

well,

Troy:

well hold on.

Alex:

but at the same time, Troy, like European tourists are some of the worst dressed people in the world.

Alex:

I can say that.

Alex:

As a European, I mean, see

Ana:

only.

Ana:

Hero trash.

Ana:

No, you haven't been in Milan or Paris.

Ana:

Why do you have Parisian

Ana:

style?

Ana:

Parisian chic,

Ana:

the entire genre.

Alex:

If you're, If I know, but those, those are like, yeah.

Alex:

If you

Ana:

You are speaking with your people.

Ana:

I dunno who

Brian:

well no.

Brian:

Look,

Brian:

there's a lot of Europeans

Alex:

I'm, I'm,

Brian:

Those like.

Brian:

Polo shirts with the giant numbers on them and

Alex:

Yeah, exactly.

Alex:

Yeah.

Ana:

But that's Euro

Ana:

trash.

Ana:

You have that everywhere.

Ana:

Don't you know?

Alex:

No, I, I, under, I am judging because I think if you look at there, there's definitely the population

Alex:

of, you walk into any city, you walk into New York and you think, you know, America is full of great taste.

Alex:

I think every country has, something that another country will find offensive, including kind of like the broad European fashion when they travel.

Alex:

I think, you know.

Ana:

Yeah, but what's the point?

Ana:

What's your point?

Alex:

My point is that like, I don't think it's, I don't think we can casually like talk about one country having more taste than another.

Alex:

I think there are exports of taste that each of these countries can do really well.

Alex:

France, Italy, even America.

Alex:

But I think like

Alex:

culture itself,

Ana:

I don't know,

Alex:

of a mishmash.

Ana:

Right.

Ana:

But I think that certain countries made the brand out of themselves thanks to it.

Ana:

Like that's, France makes money out of it.

Ana:

Of their luxury industry, of their province, of their vines, of their perfumes, of

Ana:

their luxury brands, of

Ana:

their museums.

Ana:

Like that's their, their brands based on their taste.

Ana:

Italy the same, that they haven't created anything new in like, whatever, a hundred years

Alex:

But it's a, it's an industry rather than like a broad

Brian:

new.

Troy:

Right.

Alex:

behave, you know?

Ana:

this was the latest global

Troy:

I, I want her, I want you on every week, Ana, we're gonna build up brand.

Troy:

I'll get you

Troy:

a stylist.

Troy:

What, listen, but I'm wondering, Ana, 'cause this, this podcast occasionally likes to veer into service territory.

Troy:

you know, what helpful tips would we offer the audience around how to be more tasteful?

Troy:

How to think about taste, with more, I don't know, sophistication maybe?

Troy:

Or like, what advice would you give me about taste?

Troy:

I, I'm, I'm looking for it.

Ana:

In terms of service,

Troy:

Well, no, I, I meant when I said service, I

Troy:

mean service in the context of service journalism.

Troy:

Like we want to help people be,

Troy:

live a more ta live a more tasteful life,

Brian:

Is this something you can do intentionally?

Brian:

Like can you learn to have taste?

Brian:

I.

Ana:

That's what I wanted to say, but like I'm really like, I wanna really pay respect to American designers who are at bachelor Versa side.

Ana:

And I know that your audience doesn't care, but if that goes, I'm segueing into the next answer is like, what are you really interested in and passionate about, Troy?

Ana:

What would you like to learn more of?

Ana:

Because everything, you wanna develop a taste.

Ana:

I have a taste for is an expression.

Ana:

It's basically think of taste as an active thing.

Troy:

you

Ana:

Something that can be learned, not something that's given, and you have it or you don't

Troy:

So do you think I could be more stylish if, if I, if I put my

Ana:

Thousand percent you can hire a stylist.

Ana:

Look at Jeff Bezos.

Ana:

I mean, look at that.

Ana:

He's like, cover of Vanity Fair Shot by Ann Leitz.

Ana:

Have you seen him

Ana:

before?

Alex:

I don't.

Alex:

Are we, are we saying

Ana:

No, but like, that's

Ana:

what I'm saying.

Ana:

You can hire a stylist, but you can also learn about style, read fashion, substack

Brian:

Lauren

Alex:

in tech, everybody in everybody in Silicon Valley right now is a stylist.

Alex:

I can tell you,

Ana:

ab Absolutely.

Ana:

They all go to Brunel.

Ana:

Cuccinelli is like, Nona is making them like meatballs and solo mayo, you know, like, like they're, they're all into like that.

Ana:

So that's kind of.

Ana:

It's not that that's a shortcut to taste, but if you are really interested in that, Troy, you go fashion subject you, you click on affiliate links and then you slowly go whatever your

Troy:

Yeah, I'm kind of more interested in, I'm waking up in the to this morning, right.

Troy:

And I'm my little low on clothing 'cause it's the end of a trip.

Troy:

But, you know, I make decisions in my closet or to add things to my closet and I'm just wondering if you would maybe have anything for me to think about when I'm making those decisions?

Ana:

If you have nothing to wear in your hotel room,

Troy:

Yeah,

Ana:

that's pretty much the end,

Ana:

the end of your, I can't like deliver anything

Ana:

for like, I don't know the.

Troy:

You see,

Troy:

because men of my, I mean, I'll just finish this up.

Troy:

Men of of of

Troy:

my vi vintage typically just kind of veer towards uniform dressing

Troy:

and.

Troy:

And try to just stick to the same stable of brands and, and, and looks, and then vary them slightly.

Troy:

Like, you know, I have, you know, classic Lacoste, you know, polo tops in 37 colors just because it's comforting to me and I don't have to make a lot of decisions.

Alex:

Yeah.

Troy:

you, is that okay?

Ana:

I am not sure that I understand your question.

Ana:

We went from you having a lot of dirty laundry to having, you know, like, so at the end of your trip, so like a lot of men, like honestly, I'll just go back.

Ana:

A lot of men behave like you, banana Republic build an entire like.

Ana:

American companies build an entire business on the fact that men don't wanna make decisions.

Ana:

They buy one pair of chinos when they're 22 and they buy, like the next time they buy, like they're buried in at 92.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

They buy the same over and over and over again, and America little business is created like that.

Ana:

So, you know what I mean?

Ana:

That's, that's kind of your, an archetype of that sort of behavior.

Ana:

So if you wanna sort of evolve your taste, then I have the same.

Ana:

Recommendation is before having 37 lowcost is amazing.

Ana:

That really takes decision making out of your, your day, and which is more important.

Ana:

It creates a brand for you, repeatability and uniform.

Ana:

It's like, oh, I know how Troy's gonna look like it's

Ana:

Steve Jobs, black turtleneck, and so on.

Ana:

So you project a specific image.

Ana:

So what do you want?

Ana:

You wanna have a different image.

Troy:

I think I'll stick to this one for now, just 'cause

Ana:

Cool.

Ana:

So what's your question then?

Troy:

well, I was being, I, we, we, it was a hypothetical

Ana:

Hypothetical.

Ana:

So let's let,

Ana:

okay, so let's, do you

Brian:

the, what's your question?

Brian:

Treatment,

Alex:

I don't, I don't mean so I have a hard

Ana:

No, but I

Ana:

wanna be helpful here.

Ana:

I wanna be useful to your audience.

Ana:

So kind of my thing is, oh, there

Ana:

is Anonymous banker.

Ana:

It's time for

Ana:

me to go.

Alex:

I.

Brian:

YY Ana, thank you.

Brian:

Thank you for taking the

Ana:

Maybe I can give.

Ana:

Hey Troy, can I give a tip to anonymous banker?

Troy:

A hundred percent.

Troy:

You know what

Brian:

what

Brian:

what do you think

Troy:

like, he,

Alex:

Are we gender gendering?

Troy:

he has 30 of those blue, Oxford, button

Troy:

downs.

Ana:

That's not the brand, Troy, that's something different.

Ana:

No, but I do wanna like just wrap up and leave you on a, like if you really wanted to explore, like you can say, Hey Anna, tell me which podcast to listen to.

Ana:

Tell me, which like newsletters to.

Ana:

To read, tell me which stores to go to, and you start from there because like I tell, read a continuous link, for example, like read za, go to

Ana:

those Instagram accounts, see what you like, you like more of that algorithm is gonna take care of the rest.

Ana:

You are gonna look like him.

Ana:

No

Brian:

Give us.

Brian:

Give us five tips for the PVA weekend.

Brian:

Thank you, Anna.

Ana:

Thank you.

Ana:

Bye.

Ana:

Thank

Ana:

you.

Ana:

Bye.

Troy:

Please come back.

Troy:

Shit.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

Ab,

Troy:

That's a lot.

Troy:

That's a lot.

Troy:

that's your daily day

Brian:

That's, yeah, that's a Tuesday.

Brian:

you know, uh,

Brian:

Anna's very accomplished and she's very high energy and she's a lot of opinions and she takes his shit,

Brian:

So it's good.

Alex:

stop in six minutes.

Alex:

I

Brian:

got a hard stop.

Alex:

I just wanted to say hi to anonymous Banker.

Alex:

We keep missing

AB:

Hey, Alex.

AB:

Yeah.

AB:

How's it going?

Alex:

I'm, now I'm nice sworn to secrecy.

Alex:

I, I've seen your face, so

Troy:

Well, if they found out, if they found out at at Goldman that he was doing this, they would be pissed.

AB:

Exactly.

Brian:

so, ab, is there a taste premium?

Brian:

Like, can this get, can this get the multiple up?

Brian:

How's taste valued?

Brian:

Is that just an intangible?

Brian:

Where does that go?

Brian:

On the balance sheet.

AB:

So I think there's sort of two layers to, to taste, especially in the media space.

AB:

So taste around personalities and then taste around companies.

AB:

personalities you see people.

AB:

Like even a Joe Rogan, who you might say doesn't have taste, but he has this cultural zeitgeist, and that allows him to get these massive Spotify deals.

AB:

Howard Stern did his deal with SiriusXM and at the company level, I think where you see it pushing up valuation is where larger media companies are trying to say either they feel like

AB:

they're getting behind and so they need to capture new tastes or they need to basically align themselves with the next generation of content creators.

AB:

so yeah, I think it totally plays into valuation.

Brian:

Okay, but how much.

AB:

Um, I don't know,

AB:

it's hard to

AB:

say.

AB:

I mean, the, the

Brian:

five x EBITDA to like a eight x ebitda?

Brian:

Like what are you gonna get?

Alex:

I think it absolutely can.

AB:

yeah, I mean, the, the best way to drive a price is running a competitive process or have people believe that there's scarcity of a business.

AB:

So depending on the size of the deal.

AB:

And your counterparty.

AB:

I've been in situations where, I had an offer that I tripled, and not based on any sort of revenue, multiple or EBITDA multiple.

AB:

It, it, it, it ultimately tied out in this case to a revenue multiple.

AB:

but I think it can be, it can.

AB:

actually drive significant value.

AB:

I don't know.

AB:

There's not a specific

AB:

percentage

Alex:

But I mean, it, it, it would make, it would make sense that in an algorithmic world where standing out is, is so important and, and, you know,

Alex:

getting kind of beyond the noise, that taste and taste making would be a huge premium for any brand at this stage.

AB:

Exactly.

AB:

Yeah.

Alex:

they built a billion dollar company by calling it water liquid death.

Alex:

Right.

Alex:

I mean, it just, it was just like hitting culture right at the right moment.

Alex:

And I think you can do that in anything.

Alex:

It's always been the case and it's more the case today than ever, I think.

AB:

Yeah, there's in the YouTube space.

AB:

One of the things that's happened and what you saw.

AB:

So last year there were a couple YouTube channels and brands for sale, and no one was really biding.

AB:

And then they just recently sold, one of them sold last year.

AB:

The, The hot ones.

AB:

Right.

AB:

And so one of the big things with the reason why that deal got done, is because people believe that you could connect Now taste with.

AB:

Monetization.

AB:

So another deal that just got announced is this company called Good Good Golf.

AB:

And that thing's been shopped for 18 months.

AB:

And so now what you're seeing is the market believes and, and you know, all these different analyst reports that YouTube is the next TV that they believe that they can connect.

AB:

Taste with monetization.

AB:

And it's really interesting when you hear how the guys from, first we fee sell their advertising.

AB:

It's not based on a CPM.

AB:

It's basically selling brands on the adjacency to the content.

AB:

Like that's, they, they sell out one week to these different brands and get them to pay premium advertising rates.

Troy:

that's not, that's not taste, that's just

Alex:

But, but here's the thing about the, the algorithmics thing.

Alex:

I, I was talking, you know, when I was, I've been raising money for, for our video game studio.

Alex:

Thankfully that's all behind us, but, What, what happened is we talked to a few, industry, publishers, like big, big publishing firms that they used

Alex:

to be able to kind of find a decent product and, and, and push that out and, you know, build an audience.

Alex:

But I said as things have turned more and more algorithmic and it's harder and harder to reach audiences via,

Alex:

via just like, you know, blasting paid media at them, what they're investing in is that they're actually.

Alex:

Taking investment into, into smaller studios, smaller companies and the entirety of their, their searches around taste.

Alex:

Trying to find people who have taste, that are taste makers that can kind of like build a number of things.

Alex:

Not only a product, but like, not only a product, but like content, media, social activity that kind of breakthrough because of taste.

Alex:

So they're, they're taste scouts now.

Alex:

They, they went from, you know, and, and I think that makes a lot of sense.

AB:

Here's where it applies.

AB:

So in the first We feast, I agree with Troy's point that it's just a, it's a packaging example that I gave, but the reason why taste drove value at, at, hot Ones is that they were very like.

AB:

Thoughtful and like how they put the content together.

AB:

they get the actors or whomever the celebrities they have into the studio, get 'em comfortable with the content.

AB:

like that's very intentional.

AB:

And so there's a, a taste element to the content that's been created that resonates with an audience and that has like the, basically built in a very embedded audience that continues to grow.

AB:

And so you can leverage good taste being intentional about content creation to then sell because.

AB:

The brands like CMOs want to be aligned with good content, right?

AB:

So I, I agree with Troy's point, but it's a little bit different in that there's a bunch of cooking shows online that haven't been able to tap through as much as the hot ones.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I, I think the big question is whether taste gets you off the spreadsheet,

Brian:

right?

Brian:

Like in media, I.

Troy:

does.

Troy:

Of course it does.

Brian:

It used to.

Brian:

I don't know if it still does.

Troy:

maybe less so.

Troy:

No, but I, I think there's always a contextual premium on, you know, in places where people believe that the

Troy:

media's

Brian:

Alex has a hard stop,

Alex:

stop.

Alex:

I gotta go, guys.

Troy:

you gotta,

Alex:

Thank you.

Alex:

See?

Alex:

No, I'm gonna keep

AB:

The re

Alex:

Stop.

Alex:

I'm

Brian:

to like do it as a spinoff It's our Joni loves Chachi.

AB:

biggest thing I think that taste, 'cause the way that it pulls it off the spreadsheet is basically people are saying, we have to have this.

AB:

If we don't have this, then it's, we're missing out on an opportunity.

AB:

it's not just like a capability ad.

AB:

We're not just

Troy:

it's media.

Troy:

It's media for crying out loud.

Troy:

Of course, taste matters.

Troy:

Of course.

Troy:

Context matters.

Troy:

Of course.

Troy:

Your ability to influence culture matters.

Troy:

Of course, that translates into CPM premiums.

Troy:

It's media like, I don't even know why we're even discussing this.

Troy:

It's crazy.

Troy:

Oh my God.

Troy:

We'd be, we'd be better off talking about whether AI has taste.

Troy:

Does AI have taste?

Troy:

Brian?

Brian:

to me, taste is like a point of view and that's when the taste really excels.

Brian:

And I, I think by its nature, ai, flatten AI is basically an accelerant to what we see with algorithms and that flattens everything.

Brian:

And so I think there's a good case to be made that AI will make taste like, particularly in media and other areas actually be more valuable because

Troy:

Right.

Brian:

inherently human.

Troy:

But let's break it down into the pro and con, right?

Troy:

So can it, could you create a tasteful AI bot?

Troy:

Can AI do the automate the things that are part of taste making?

Troy:

Well, is taste making pattern recognition?

Troy:

Yes.

Troy:

Can AI do it?

Troy:

Yes.

Troy:

Is it understanding references and br bringing those in?

Troy:

Yes.

Troy:

Can AI do that very well?

Troy:

Can it curate based on a rule set?

Troy:

Sure.

Troy:

could it therefore do playlists and interiors and.

Troy:

Maybe fashion selection based on those rules, would that be in 90% of people's minds the equivalent of taste?

Troy:

For sure.

Troy:

Does that mean knowing your preferences?

Troy:

Probably.

Troy:

'cause they're, you know, gonna customize to what it believes about you.

Troy:

And you might find that tasteful on the other side, the, the more exquisite part of taste, which is emotional

Troy:

resonance and, you know, sensitivity to culture and time and knowing when to break rules and instinct.

Troy:

Right?

Troy:

And that sort of sixth sense that, you know, when, you know people that are super tasteful, they have that sense of things and when to break the rules and surprise and all that.

Troy:

you know, like this idea of taking something ugly and making it cool, like AI will never do that Well.

Troy:

So I, I think that actually for a lot of the world, AI will, could be a taste companion, but at the top end of the pyramid, it, it just, it, it, it doesn't

Troy:

have sensory, the sensory capability, the history, the memory that gives great taste makers there, you know, you know, sort of effervescent or, or elusive quality.

Troy:

That would be my take.

Brian:

But I mean, that's the thing, it's like most people don't want the taste.

Brian:

It's just like, it's good enough.

Brian:

It's the, the simulation of taste is, is is fine.

Brian:

But if you're going to, I don't know if I, if I was going to like Tokyo, I would trust, like, you know, Colin Nay, like, he's, he's like a, he's like a taste guy.

Brian:

He's like a Japan guy.

Brian:

Like I, I go for his, like, recommendations because I know he, I know his taste and you know, it's not gonna be the same thing that AI would give me.

Brian:

I mean, AI is, is just gonna be the average at the end of the day.

Troy:

You know, Brian, I had this funny conversation this morning with a guy that owns a hotel and he said, you know, there's this guy, he's like, some things that are considered sort of tasteful

Troy:

and I'm not, and I'm, and I'm going to deliberately confuse this with like, stuffs that, that is memorable or quirky or, you know, just like surprising.

Troy:

you know, they, he's like, when you, when you operationalize it in a hotel, it, it, it loses its taste kind of appeal, right?

Troy:

So he was saying that inside of their hotel there was this quirky guy that always walked around and took the coffee orders, just walked around the hotel and became a character in the hotel.

Troy:

And it probably didn't pencil out as a. You know, you know, as a good investment, but like, it was like part of the, it was just part of the vibe.

Troy:

And he is like, you can't, you can't just make that as a role inside of all of our hotels.

Troy:

It's, and, and so it, it, it does kind of speak to like, you know, the humanness of it and when, you know, the challenge with like, hotels are a great lens for this.

Troy:

Like the challenge of scaling taste and, and why you have to really admire companies that, that are able to do it.

Troy:

you know, like to, to kind of add surprise and taste in ways that are not cheesy or feel manufactured across a big chain.

Troy:

And that's why that hotel last night was so impressive to me because, you know, I've been in lots of shitty four seasons, but like, this one is special and

Brian:

Well, four Seasons.

Brian:

Four Seasons is like, it's like a licensing play, isn't it?

Brian:

Don't they just license it out to

Troy:

I.

Troy:

Yeah, but I think there's a taste book obviously, and a playbook that goes along with it, so,

Brian:

that's the thing.

Brian:

It's like when you try to scale, Alex said it like, when you try to scale these kinds of things, they inevitably get diluted, like at the end of the day.

Brian:

And that's was my point about Americans not really having, you know, taste as a strong suit is we're, we're hyperscalers, we blitz scale.

Brian:

You know, like, you know, and if taste comes along, eh, fine.

Brian:

Like, you know, but like, at the end of the day, it's in service of monetization.

Brian:

Am I right?

Brian:

Ab I mean, we're outta monetization

AB:

I, Yeah.

AB:

I mean, I think if some of these media companies, and if, as I mentioned some of these names, some of these people have been canceled, but I would make

AB:

the argument that a traditional media company that had scale, there are people like I. Ales Moonves or a Barry Di at at Paramount, or a Sheila Evans at HBO

AB:

Docs, like they really drove, their taste drove a significant increase in value because they were picking the content.

AB:

They knew what resonated with viewers.

AB:

I think what's happening, there's a really good subset post about this guy talking about the evolution of sort of taste at Netflix and how when you combine it with.

AB:

The algorithm and and viewership metrics.

AB:

It's sort of getting diluted in the sense that all these shows have the same sort of look and feel like they feel like movies, but they have these like ways of getting you hooked to keep watching.

AB:

And so it's like a delusion or a perversion where when everyone's looking at the metrics, taste is sort

AB:

of going out the window to just get people to, cons, basically become like hyper consumers of content.

AB:

So I think that there was a role to play 'cause like.

AB:

Brian Roberts at Comcast.

AB:

He doesn't have any taste, right?

AB:

It's, it's a, it's a telephone or it's a cable business with a bunch of content there, but no one would argue that he's green lighting shows and things like that.

AB:

I think the media executives of the past had a lot of say and drove a lot of value creation through having taste, but I think that's

AB:

changing

Brian:

Yeah, I mean look at HBO, like Richard Plepler era, like HBO versus doctor, what is it?

Brian:

Doc, the Pimple Popper.

Brian:

that's a show.

Brian:

I mean, you gotta pick a lane and like ultimately, you know, we pick a lane of scaling and monetization and that's fine, but you're gonna lose something along the way.

AB:

Yeah.

AB:

I think where AI plays its role in this taste world is it, it allows you to action on it.

AB:

So.

AB:

In your example of of Japan, it will just rely on some of these taste makers or say you, you want to update your wardrobe.

AB:

AI should be the sort of the layer that's telling you, Hey, you follow these five people on Instagram and you know you wanna wear this.

AB:

Here's what fits with you and here's how you can buy it.

Brian:

That makes monetizing, having great tastes really difficult.

Brian:

I mean, we gotta get, it's like Chris Black, he's a good example of someone who, you know, how would you describe Ki Chris Black?

Brian:

I mean, he does all kinds of things.

Brian:

Like he, he's like a, he's like a taste maker guy.

Brian:

He's,

Troy:

He is like a, he's a male influencer.

Troy:

Dj, podcaster guy.

Brian:

yeah, he's at fashion shows.

Brian:

He's at all kinds of things like Right.

Brian:

But, you know how he mo he, he would be an interesting guest.

Brian:

'cause how he monetize his taste, I think is, is pretty interesting.

Brian:

when I can

AB:

Yeah,

AB:

I mean, his desire is to make more content to try to monetize like he wants to.

AB:

What's interesting is he wants to move kind of into the traditional media realm.

AB:

That's like his, one of his goals is to move back into the traditional media realm with a show to monetize it more.

AB:

He, I, I don't, he has a big audience, or not an audience that's highly engaged, around a specific.

AB:

Group of men.

AB:

but what's interesting is as he thinks about building future value, it's actually going backwards, not forwards in terms of content.

Brian:

Why do you would like, that would be good to have mom to talk about this.

Brian:

Why, why, why would that be?

Brian:

I mean, 'cause to me, it's like the way the world is now in digital media, it's like it's all algorithmic.

Brian:

It's, you know, we talk about it on the show all the time and it inevitably, Kyle Chaco was on here.

Brian:

It flattens everything.

Brian:

And so you might wanna just go back to traditional media because there you can actually opt, optimize to your taste versus

Brian:

here

AB:

I mean, think about there's much better substack riders than some of these Fox or CNN news or

AB:

M-S-N-B-C news hosts that some, some of these people on M-S-N-B-C are making five, 10, $15 million a year.

AB:

I. And what they're saying on a daily basis doesn't make any, they're just reading off a script or just kind of going off on their own thoughts.

AB:

Whereas people, like, I think there's a ceiling on how much money you can make on Substack, and so most of those people are figure, like audio is one of the

AB:

best channels to make a lot of money because the traditional media companies are still writing pretty large checks.

AB:

'cause they have the, the depth of advertisers, be able to push premium CPMs.

AB:

It's just, just how the world, it could change.

AB:

but for now, that's sort of how you have to navigate.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

Do you wanna do good product, Troy, or do you find closing thoughts?

Brian:

Do you have a, like a sermon?

Troy:

I don't really have a sermon.

Troy:

I mean, I think that that the, the Chris example is just another one where someone who's considered to have great taste.

Troy:

Is, someone whose recommendations move the needle in commercial settings, and therefore their premium is justified.

Troy:

I mean, it's just, to me it's like the difference between franchise media, that has incredible kind of, you know, an elusive cultural power and stuff

Troy:

that sits in the middle where you have to work really hard to, to kind of, you know, make a media business work versus the far end, which is just,

Troy:

you know, monetization where you're, you, you're, you're taking commodity impressions and turning them into money.

Troy:

So yeah, in, in media, the game will always be to get, to turn taste into premiums.

Troy:

I think,

Troy:

you know,

Troy:

particularly, and, and, and I think that taste exists on different strata, right?

Troy:

Like there's taste in economics.

Troy:

There's taste in politics, there's taste in fashion, there's taste in travel, there's taste in all those places.

Troy:

It generally is the sort of thing that differentiates someone who, you know, is, is seen as, as, you know, as having weight from a, you know, kind of, cultural perspective or, or economic perspective.

Troy:

So I'm glad we did this.

Troy:

and it happened to, to nicely coincide with my visit to Miami, is,

Brian:

So is that like let's get into good product?

Brian:

I think he has some books for us, not

Troy:

Well,

Troy:

I think we should revisit, preppy Handbook and Anonymous Banker probably has a couple copies of it.

Troy:

I noticed by the way, that it's 119 bucks on eBay.

Troy:

It's outta print.

Brian:

Really because we have a copy at home.

Brian:

I hope Ana didn't pay 120 bucks for that.

Troy:

Well, and then there's also, um, the, the funny thing about Miami is it doesn't feel like the most kind of literate city.

Troy:

my Jillian and I had to travel 10 miles by bike to find a bookstore and there, there, there isn't a bookstore, like you ask the people at the hotel, you know, is there a bookstore around?

Troy:

And they point out like a Tash in bookstore.

Troy:

These are baby books.

Troy:

These are picture books for grownups.

Troy:

These are not books, right.

Troy:

So anyway, I bought, I went to the bookstore and I bought that book Miami by Joan Didion.

Troy:

And I got to read that in the last couple days.

Troy:

That was fun.

Troy:

there's a, it's fun to try to understand what made this city into the city.

Troy:

It is.

Troy:

And in particular, the, the Cuban influence on the city was really fascinating to me.

Troy:

And they were, you know, and incredibly, idealistic crowd, the, exiles in Miami and also seemingly quite violent.

Brian:

It's a great mixture.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

But, yeah, no, last night was fun.

Troy:

And, that hotel is a good product for sure.

Troy:

if you could bring yourself to, spend the exorbitant amount that they charge, I think you would enjoy it.

Brian:

You're welcome, Troy.

Brian:

It was on me.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

You paid last night.

Troy:

That's also a nice product

Brian:

ab, if you come to Miami, I'll buy you a fancy

Brian:

mail.

AB:

good,

Troy:

All right.

Troy:

Thanks guys.

Troy:

That's it for this episode of people versus algorithms where each week we uncover patterns shaping media culture and technology.

Troy:

Big thanks as always to our producer, Vanja Arsenov.

Troy:

She always makes us a little clearer and more understandable and we appreciate her very, very much.

Troy:

If you're enjoying these conversations, we'd love for you to leave us a review.

Troy:

It helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing.

Troy:

Remember, you can find People vs.

Troy:

Algorithms on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and now on YouTube.

Troy:

Thanks for listening and we'll see you again next week.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

That's it.

Brian:

We're gonna wrap it up.

Brian:

Thank you.

Brian:

This was a good special episode and yeah, we'll keep bringing people on for drop bys.

Brian:

It'd be good.

Troy:

All right.

Troy:

Thanks.

AB:

right.

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People vs Algorithms
A podcast for curious media minds.
Uncovering patterns of change in media, culture, and technology, each week media veterans Brian Morrissey, Alex Schleifer and Troy Young break down stuff that matters.
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